AU effects and UPnP

JB92 · January 21, 2024, 10:58am

Hey Audirvana community,

Hope I’m going this right.

I’ve been an Audirvana user for a number of years and decided to give Studio a trial while doing the same with Roon.

While I really want to and mostly do like the software, I would like to understand if there is any plan to get AU effects (especially convolution) working in a stable manner while streaming to a UPnP? I managed to get Hang Loose Convolver and LA Convolver working by chance by using a slightly modified workaround provided to me by Mitch (from HLC), but out of nowhere that workaround stopped working. Pretty frustrating.

I want to go with Audirvana over Roon because I prefer the way that it sounds (whether this is subjective or not, I don’t know) and want to see Audirvana succeed, but really don’t see the point of I have to use it while plugged in via a USB connection? I could get by with tidal and a Convolver via black hole quite happily.

FWIW, I’m using an M1 MacBook Air (8gb ram), and DAC is an RME ADI-2 DAC. I am streaming from tidal (which is kind of implied earlier).

edit: UPnP device is a WiiM Pro

Agoldnear · January 21, 2024, 6:47pm

Hello, welcome…
It seems there is some issue with the HLC AU plug-in in Audirvana… @Mitchco is contributing here in the community and may provide some more insight regarding HLC functionality in Audirvana… @Ddude003 uses HLC in his system configuration… perhaps he can provide more insight for you as well…

Please post your Debug Info here so folks can help the best possible.

Ddude003 · January 21, 2024, 7:33pm

@JB92, Realize that UPnP is not a realtime interactive network protocol… So expecting realtime interactivity from Audirvana across UPnP is a bit much… And if you use UPnP across anything other than a very clean and well thought out and managed LAN you are asking for troubles…

Roon uses its own proprietary protocol called RAAT (Roon Advanced Audio Transport) which must also be supported, licensed?, in the end network hardware (read streamers)… So there is that difference…

It turns out that I have been using Mitches workaround since I first started using HLC… I just figured that was the way you had to do it with a UPnP non-realtime connection… It is similar with most plugins I have used that have a realtime user interface… And I have had no issues with using plugins this way with Audirvana, although others seem to struggle with it… My guess is LAN configuration and UPnP issues…

JB92 · January 21, 2024, 7:42pm

Hey @Agoldnear, thank you for the welcome.

I’ve been in contact with Mitch and he’s been really helpful. The plugin works via USB, default MacBook speakers (for testing purposes) and when sending to Blockhole, but not via UPnP (or Chromecast FWIW). This is a problem with any of the plugins that I try to use (HLC, LAC and MConvolutionEZ).

Hopefully I am doing something wrong that can be deduced from my debug info:

Audirvana Studio 2.6.5 (20605)

macOS Version 13.0 (Build 22A380) with 8GB physical RAM

Connected account of : Jacques Booyens

NETWORK
Status: available

SIGNAL PROCESSING:

Polarity Inversion:
	Globally: OFF
	Per track: ON
Effects plugins ACTIVE in realtime mode with legacy macOS API
	AU plugin #0: Effect - Accurate Sound HLConvolver ()
	AU plugin #1: None
	AU plugin #2: None
	AU plugin #3: None

UPSAMPLING:
r8brain not in use
r8brain filter parameters
Bandwidth = 99.5%
Stop band attenuation 218dB
Phase linear

AUDIO VOLUME:
Max allowed volume: 100
Replay Gain: None
SW volume control: ON

LIBRARY SETTINGS:
Sync list: 0 folders
iTunes/Music library synchronization: not synchronized
Library database path: /Users/jacquesbooyens/Library/Application Support/Audirvana/AudirvanaDatabase.sqlite

Local audio files fingerprinting
Tracks with no MBID: 220

Remote Control server:
Listening on 127.0.0.1 on port 50403

ACTIVE STREAMING SERVICES
TIDAL: Connected as HiFi Plus

=================== AUDIO DEVICE ========================

Active method: UPnP

Preferred device: [UPnP] Living Room Model UID:Linkplay Technology Inc. WiiM Pro-4E82 UID:uuid:FF98F09C-C6DB-EC21-B9CD-01F2FF98F09C

Selected device:Living Room
Manufacturer: Linkplay Technology Inc.
Model name: WiiM Pro-4E82
Model UID: Linkplay Technology Inc. WiiM Pro-4E82
UID: uuid:FF98F09C-C6DB-EC21-B9CD-01F2FF98F09C
UPnP device at http://192.168.3.14:49152/description.xml
ID 0x0

6 available sample rates up to 192000Hz
44100
48000
88200
96000
176400
192000

Volume control: Yes
Max volume alert: Disabled

MQA capability
Auto-detect MQA devices: Yes
Not a MQA device, user set to not MQA
DSD capability: DSD via PCM 1.1

Device audio channels
Preferred stereo channels L:0 R:1
Channel bitmap: Ox3, layout:
Channel 0 mapped to 0
Channel 1 mapped to 1

UPnP set capabilities
Maximum PCM frequency set: 192000Hz
Maximum PCM bitdepth set: 24
Not native DSD capable
Avoid RAW PCM streams: No
Unwanted playback stop workaround: No

UPnP / DLNA supported protocols :
http-get::audio/wav:DLNA.ORG_PN=LPCM
http-get::audio/x-wav:DLNA.ORG_PN=LPCM
http-get::audio/mpeg:DLNA.ORG_PN=MP3
http-get::audio/mpeg:DLNA.ORG_PN=MP3X
http-get::audio/x-ms-wma:DLNA.ORG_PN=WMABASE
http-get::audio/x-ms-wma:DLNA.ORG_PN=WMAFULL
http-get::audio/x-ms-wma:DLNA.ORG_PN=WMAPRO
http-get::audio/mpeg:DLNA.ORG_PN=MP2_MPS
http-get::audio/mp3:
http-get::audio/wma:
http-get::audio/mpeg:
http-get::audio/vnd.dlna.adts:DLNA.ORG_PN=AAC_ADTS
http-get::audio/vnd.dlna.adts:DLNA.ORG_PN=AAC_ADTS_320
http-get::audio/m4a:DLNA.ORG_PN=AAC_ISO
http-get::audio/aac:DLNA.ORG_PN=AAC_ISO
http-get::audio/ac3:DLNA.ORG_PN=AC3
http-get::audio/ogg:*
http-get::audio/ape:
http-get::audio/x-ape:
http-get::audio/flac:
DLNA 1.5: Yes
Native Gapless playback: Yes
Universal Gapless playback active: No
Missing events workaround: Yes
Can play native DSD: No
Volume Control: scalar
Number of channels: 2
Use as stereo device only: No

1 output streams:
Number of active channels: 2, in 1 stream(s)
Channel #0 :Stream 0 channel 0
Channel #1 :Stream 0 channel 1

Stream ID 0x0 0 channels starting at 0
12 virtual formats:
2 ch Non-mixable linear PCM Interleaved 16 little endian Signed Integer 44.1kHz finite length
2 ch Non-mixable linear PCM Interleaved 24 little endian Signed Integer 44.1kHz finite length
2 ch Non-mixable linear PCM Interleaved 16 little endian Signed Integer 88.2kHz finite length
2 ch Non-mixable linear PCM Interleaved 24 little endian Signed Integer 88.2kHz finite length
2 ch Non-mixable linear PCM Interleaved 16 little endian Signed Integer 176.4kHz finite length
2 ch Non-mixable linear PCM Interleaved 24 little endian Signed Integer 176.4kHz finite length
2 ch Non-mixable linear PCM Interleaved 16 little endian Signed Integer 48kHz finite length
2 ch Non-mixable linear PCM Interleaved 24 little endian Signed Integer 48kHz finite length
2 ch Non-mixable linear PCM Interleaved 16 little endian Signed Integer 96kHz finite length
2 ch Non-mixable linear PCM Interleaved 24 little endian Signed Integer 96kHz finite length
2 ch Non-mixable linear PCM Interleaved 16 little endian Signed Integer 192kHz finite length
2 ch Non-mixable linear PCM Interleaved 24 little endian Signed Integer 192kHz finite length

0 physical formats

Current device transportInfo:
CurrentTransportState: PLAYING
CurrentTransportStatus: OK
CurrentSpeed: 1

Current device MediaInfo:
NrTracks: 0
MediaDuration: 00:00:00
CurrentURI: optical
CurrentURIMetadata: <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>

upnp:classobject.item.audioItem.musicTrack</upnp:class>

song:subid</song:subid>
song:description</song:description>
song:id0</song:id>
song:coding_fLPCM</song:coding_f>
song:singerid0</song:singerid>
song:albumid0</song:albumid>
optical
dc:title</dc:title>
dc:creator</dc:creator>
upnp:artist</upnp:artist>
upnp:album</upnp:album>
upnp:albumArtURI</upnp:albumArtURI>

nextURI: 
nextURIMetadata: 
PlayMedium: OPTICAL
RecordMedium: NOT_IMPLEMENTED
WriteStatus: NOT_IMPLEMENTED

Current transport actions:
Stop,Seek,X_DLNA_SeekTime,Pause

Current device AVT service description:

<?xml version="1.0"?> 1 0 DMR-1.50 urn:schemas-upnp-org:device:MediaRenderer:1 Living Room Linkplay Technology Inc. https://wiimhome.com WiiM Pro Receiver WiiM Pro Receiver https://wiimhome.com uuid:FF98F09C-C6DB-EC21-B9CD-01F2FF98F09C V01-Jan 12 2024 00001 WiiM Pro-4E82 FF98F09CC6DBEC21B9CD01F2 QPlay:2 image/png 48 48 24 /upnp/grender-48x48.png image/png 120 120 24 /upnp/grender-120x120.png image/jpeg 48 48 24 /upnp/grender-48x48.jpg image/jpeg 120 120 24 /upnp/grender-120x120.jpg urn:schemas-upnp-org:service:AVTransport:1 urn:upnp-org:serviceId:AVTransport /upnp/rendertransportSCPD.xml /upnp/control/rendertransport1 /upnp/event/rendertransport1 urn:schemas-upnp-org:service:ConnectionManager:1 urn:upnp-org:serviceId:ConnectionManager /upnp/renderconnmgrSCPD.xml /upnp/control/renderconnmgr1 /upnp/event/renderconnmgr1 urn:schemas-upnp-org:service:RenderingControl:1 urn:upnp-org:serviceId:RenderingControl /upnp/rendercontrolSCPD.xml /upnp/control/rendercontrol1 /upnp/event/rendercontrol1 urn:schemas-wiimu-com:service:PlayQueue:1 urn:wiimu-com:serviceId:PlayQueue /upnp/PlayQueueSCPD.xml /upnp/control/PlayQueue1 /upnp/event/PlayQueue1 urn:schemas-tencent-com:service:QPlay:1 urn:tencent-com:serviceId:QPlay /upnp/QPlaySCPD.xml /upnp/control/QPlay1 /upnp/event/QPlay1

Current device RootDevice description:

<?xml version="1.0"?> 1 0 DMR-1.50 urn:schemas-upnp-org:device:MediaRenderer:1 Living Room Linkplay Technology Inc. https://wiimhome.com WiiM Pro Receiver WiiM Pro Receiver https://wiimhome.com uuid:FF98F09C-C6DB-EC21-B9CD-01F2FF98F09C V01-Jan 12 2024 00001 WiiM Pro-4E82 FF98F09CC6DBEC21B9CD01F2 QPlay:2 image/png 48 48 24 /upnp/grender-48x48.png image/png 120 120 24 /upnp/grender-120x120.png image/jpeg 48 48 24 /upnp/grender-48x48.jpg image/jpeg 120 120 24 /upnp/grender-120x120.jpg urn:schemas-upnp-org:service:AVTransport:1 urn:upnp-org:serviceId:AVTransport /upnp/rendertransportSCPD.xml /upnp/control/rendertransport1 /upnp/event/rendertransport1 urn:schemas-upnp-org:service:ConnectionManager:1 urn:upnp-org:serviceId:ConnectionManager /upnp/renderconnmgrSCPD.xml /upnp/control/renderconnmgr1 /upnp/event/renderconnmgr1 urn:schemas-upnp-org:service:RenderingControl:1 urn:upnp-org:serviceId:RenderingControl /upnp/rendercontrolSCPD.xml /upnp/control/rendercontrol1 /upnp/event/rendercontrol1 urn:schemas-wiimu-com:service:PlayQueue:1 urn:wiimu-com:serviceId:PlayQueue /upnp/PlayQueueSCPD.xml /upnp/control/PlayQueue1 /upnp/event/PlayQueue1 urn:schemas-tencent-com:service:QPlay:1 urn:tencent-com:serviceId:QPlay /upnp/QPlaySCPD.xml /upnp/control/QPlay1 /upnp/event/QPlay1

UPnP devices found : 2
Device #0: ID 0x0 : Living Room
UID: uuid:FF98F09C-C6DB-EC21-B9CD-01F2FF98F09C
Location: http://192.168.3.14:49152/description.xml
Manufacturer: Linkplay Technology Inc.
Model name: WiiM Pro-4E82
Device #1: ID 0x0 : Samsung AU7000 70 TV
UID: uuid:afe2971c-7d72-4c2b-9680-81e95e08f17b
Location: http://192.168.3.4:9197/dmr
Manufacturer: Samsung Electronics
Model name: UA70AU7000KXXA

Local

Max. memory for audio buffers: 6016MB

Local Audio Engine: CoreAudio
Actual I/O buffer frame size: 0

Local devices found : 3
Device #0: ID 0x34 BlackHole 2ch
Manufacturer: Existential Audio Inc.
Model UID: BlackHole2ch_ModelUID
UID: BlackHole2ch_UID
Model name: Existential Audio Inc. BlackHole 2ch
Device #1: ID 0x58 MacBook Air Speakers
Manufacturer: Apple Inc.
Model UID: Speaker
UID: BuiltInSpeakerDevice
Model name: Apple Inc. MacBook Air Speakers
Device #2: ID 0x64 ZoomAudioDevice
Manufacturer: zoom.us
Model UID: zoom.us.zoomaudiodevice
UID: zoom.us.zoomaudiodevice.001
Model name: zoom.us ZoomAudioDevice

Chromecast

Chromecast devices found : 1
Device #0: Living Room
ID: 603244eae4728bf202dca9ce90bc81ea
Model name: WiiM Pro Receiver

JB92 · January 21, 2024, 7:51pm

@Ddude003 thanks for the response. What frustrates me is that this did work and then stopped working totally out of the blue. I spent hours trying to figure out what I was doing wrong before finding Mitches workaround, so as a user of the software I am rightfully frustrated (although I am on the trial, I really want to pay for this software).

I understand that Roon has far more resources so it’s unfair to draw comparisons, so that isn’t where this question/rant comes from.

I will give it a go with realtime turned off - Mitches solution suggested leaving it on which is why I tried it. Will report back if it works, fingers crossed. Thanks for suggesting that.

Agoldnear · January 21, 2024, 8:02pm

You are allocating approximately 80% of your System RAM for playback pre-load memory… Lower this to 1 GB… I can’t say this will solve any HLC problem, however this will allow your System to give you the best possible playback sound-quality and system-level functionality…

Also, BlackHole is competing with Audirvana for Core Audio API’s (Application Programming Interface)… Audirvana needs total control for best performance… BlackHole is consuming precious RAM resources…

Ddude003 · January 21, 2024, 8:04pm

@JB92, I think you may have misunderstood my use of the term realtime… I did not mean to imply turning on or off the realtime selection in Audirvana… I was talking about the intended use across a LAN via UPnP… In other words one can not expect Audirvana and its plugins to provide a realtime interface to use for configuration and display when running via UPnP… And in case you wanted to know my settings are both Realtime Control and New AU MacOS hosting Interface are both enabled…

It might be helpful if you can describe your WAN and LAN connectivity… Running UPnP across Wifi can often be an issue…

Agoldnear · January 22, 2024, 12:04am

…The above configuration is another potential problem running AU plug-ins…

(Note the following)

Ddude003 · January 22, 2024, 1:44am

@Agoldnear, I would not call this a “HLC problem”… This is a Audirvana UPnP use issue… If UPnP can not support realtime I/O to the host using/supporting it, Audirvana in this case… How can one expect to have Audirvana hosting any VST plugin providing realtime I/O to a user interface used to configure and monitor in realtime when faced with non-realtime I/O to the end device? UPnP rides on top of TCP/IP which itself in non-realtime… In reality UPnP is just a kludge IMHO…

Agoldnear · January 22, 2024, 5:09am

Right…

Just to reiterate…
As you describe the obstacle to plug-in based real-time control functions via UPnP here:

It makes perfect sense…
Standards: Device Control Protocols

JB92 · January 22, 2024, 7:18am

Hey @Ddude003 and @Agoldnear, thanks again for your responses. I will try to respond as sensibly as possible:

@Agoldnear:

You are allocating approximately 80% of your System RAM for playback pre-load memory… Lower this to 1 GB… I can’t say this will solve any HLC problem, however this will allow your System to give you the best possible playback sound-quality and system-level functionality…

I did this as a result of tracks cutting to piercing noise at random, to the point that I was scared to play music using Audirvana at all. It stopped happening after allocating more RAM to pre-loading tracks, but it may just be a fluke. I have lowered it and it did not have any impact on whether AU units plugins work.

Also, BlackHole is competing with Audirvana for Core Audio API’s (Application Programming Interface)… Audirvana needs total control for best performance… BlackHole is consuming precious RAM resources…

Interesting. Could I ask how you inferred this? A glance at my activity monitor does not support this but I might be interpreting incorrectly.

@Ddude003

It might be helpful if you can describe your WAN and LAN connectivity… Running UPnP across Wifi can often be an issue…

I have my WiiM Pro connected to my network via a WiFi connection, because a LAN connection is not possible with my setup. Again I would absolutely consider this the cause of the problem if these plugins had never worked via UPnP, but they did work with the exact setup that I have for a short period and then suddenly stopped. I have tried resetting everything, reinstalling Audirvana, closing everything to ensure that nothing is competing for too much RAM, etc. Nothing seems to do it.

@Ddude003 could I ask what your UPnP setup looks like (i.e. what devices you’re using as well).

@Antoine could you possibly shed some light on the above questions too if possible?

Antoine · January 22, 2024, 9:03am

Hi @JB92,

Are you able to reproduce your issue without real time mode enabled and this setting enabled?

JB92 · January 22, 2024, 9:32am

Hi @Antoine,

I am able to reproduce the problem with

Realtime on, New MacOS API off
Realtime on, New MacOS API on
Realtime off, New MacOS API on
Realtime off, New MacOS API off

Agoldnear · January 22, 2024, 3:29pm

This was expected, considering the functional aspects of UPnP in Audirvana and the nature of the playback pre-load buffering…

It is about access to Core Audio APIs, etc… not related to activity…

This report regarding “DSD capability” is concerning… Your DAC supports only PCM… If you have enabled this… Why?

JB92 · January 22, 2024, 3:53pm

This report regarding “DSD capability” is concerning… Your DAC supports only PCM… If you have enabled this… Why?

My DAC supports DSD, but my streamer does not. I don’t play DSD files anyway. I tried getting into the DSD world but I just feel like most of the music is aimed at a target market that I’m not a part of.

I’ll turn it off and give it a go but I don’t believe it will make any difference? Haven’t changed this setting at all between the effects working and the effects not working.

Ddude003 · January 22, 2024, 7:42pm

Sure, no worries… < 100Mbps WAN via SB6183 SURFboard® DOCSIS® 3.0 cable modem >ethernet> Apple Airport Extreme WiFi 2.4 & 5GHz + router >ethernet> NetGear Nighthawk Model GS808E 8-Port Gigabit Ethernet Managed Switch >ethernet> Lumin U1 Mini >USB> Chord Qutest >RCA> Prima Luna Dialogue Premium Preamp >RCA> McIntosh MC152 Amp >twisted 10AWG> MartinLogan ESL speakers… Also a ML sub via Preamp’s second stereo RCA outs… Note that the Lumin U1 Mini has top managed priority… Also have a 4k AVR, 4k Blueray and 4k UST projector on the managed switch…

Apple MacBook Pro running Avdirvana with HangLoose Convlver and GML 8200 Parametric Equalizer emulation VST plugins via 5GHz WiFi… Local music files, files served from the Windoz PC, Qobuz streaming and internet radio all play smoothly…
or
Windoz custom water cooled Intel Core i7-7700K de-lid via 5Ghz WiFi…
or
Apple iPhone 5GHz WiFi…
or
Asus Windoz PC via 5GHz WiFi…

Most of this usage is within 25 feet… Mostly stereo with the occasional movie…

Agoldnear · January 22, 2024, 9:49pm

I don’t believe this will make a difference either,… Just curious because the WiiM box only supports PCM and not DoP… Up-sampling PCMxxx to DSDxxx via DoP in Audirvana is of great value though… What DAC are you using?

Antoine · January 29, 2024, 3:45pm

Hi @JB92,

I have been able to do further testing on your issue and couldn’t reproduce the issue, even with MConvolutionEZ.

I’m in those configurations and get the change made by the plugin:

Here is the configuration I made in the plugin to really hear a change during my testing (it’s the latest version of MConvolutionEZ):

Can you try the with the same configuration of the plugin?

JB92 · January 30, 2024, 3:04pm

Hi @Antoine - this did the trick with MConvolutionEZ! Not sure about HLC as my trial expired and wasn’t going to commit if it wasn’t working for my use case.
Thank you for following up!