Ok, thanks for the update @Antoine. I’m keeping my fingers crossed.
I have some more findings @Antoine, which you may wish to share with the folks behind the uBACCH plug-in.
I tried the plug-in with another player (that shall remain nameless). This player also supports VST plug-ins and UPnP; but has no way to switch off Real-time, as Audirvana does.
What I found was something familiar with my Audirvana testing, in that using a higher sample rate made the silent cut-off time much shorter. It could be as short as 10 seconds. Still unacceptable. What it indicates to me though, is that the uBACCH filter might need to up-sample to higher than the original rate to perform its process, then return the result back at the original rate.
If I pre up-sample in the other player or Audirvana to as much as 384khz, I get the shortest cutoff silence (the amount of cut-off will also depend on the length of the track, of course. A 4 min track gave a cutoff of 10 seconds).
With this other player, obviously it’s not possible to adjust the plug-in settings in Real-Time over UPnP, because the player must form a url pointing to WAV data (in this case) to send to any UPnP renderers.
It seems to me that Audirvana is always preparing source tracks for UPnP, by also forming WAV urls, even when UPnP has not be selected for output and when Real-Time is turned off for plug-ins.
If that’s the case it needs to be fixed. When outputting directly to an audio device, Audirvana should never behave as though it’s sending the data via UPnP.
Once that is fixed we will still have the problem when UPnP is used; but that needs to be resolved between you and the folks behind the plug-in.
For the UPnP problem, could it be that Audirvana is creating the WAV data for sending over UPnP before it receives the completely processed result back from the plug-in? If that’s the case, perhaps this can be fixed by simply changing the order of this processing? I really would like to have this plug-in working over UPnP.
Don’t know if it matters much and it is another datapoint… The vst3 plugin works fine with my macbook pro(monterey 12.7.1) > wifi upnp > lumen u1 mini > primaluna pre > macintosh amp > martin logan ESLs… third plugin in line with hang loose convolver, pa gml 8200 and the uBACCH demo plug-in… all via audirvana studio 2.6.0… Although in my short listening test the uBACCH crosstalk filtering did not make for a better listening experience… Maybe the ESLs do much the same thing on their own… my room is treated and room corrected via FIR filters + HLC…
Thanks for trying it.
Do you have RealTime processing for Plug-ins turned off, so that the uBACCH plugin window is not presented?
All three plugins are realtime enabled… As well as using the New AU hosting API… Realize that I configured the plugin from the configure option before playing… As, most if not all, plugins will not configure on the fly while playing via upnp… This is a known shortcoming of upnp and not Audirvana or the plugins…
My understanding from @Antoine is that plug-ins don’t work at all via UPnP when RealTime enabled. So unless I misunderstood, you wouldn’t be getting the effects of any of those plug-ins via UPnP if they’re RealTime enabled.
Perhaps @Antoine you can clarify this point? Thanks.
quote=“Antoine, post:6, topic:39190, full:true”]
Yes, I mean this.
If you look at the “Bufferized” path in Audirvana, you’ll understand the nature of the signal path all the way to output (UPnP)… Everything is done before sending the signal to the output bus… where buffering for that bus is managed and sent to the bus controller…
Is the headphone DSP available in the plug-in…?. I haven’t contacted uBACCH Labs or downloaded the plug-in yet…
I think I can answer that. No the headphone DSP is not available in this plug-in.
I’ve tested with Avantgarde and Martin Logan CLSzMkII ESLs
With Avantgarde the effect is very obvious, with ML much less so. It may not be obvious just by listening if the plug-in is actually doing anything with RealTime enabled and via UPnP.
I will take a look at the bus tomorrow. Thanks.
Surely it can’t be the case that some plug-ins would work via UPnP with RealTime enabled and others wouldn’t?
I guess the real question here is by “work” does @Antoine mean, you can adjust their settings in RealTime or is he referring to working in the sense of the effect they have on the sound?
With most plug-ins, we should easily be able to tell by ear.
It’s obviously related to the level of processing and size of registers (accumulators) needed to handle all of the number-crunching of these data intensive operations within reasonable latency windows and BLER (Bit-level Error Rate) for performance quality reasons.
There does not appear any headphone specific setup or functionality in this plugin… Best to contact the company about any headphone specific product… They do elude to such a thing although I was unable to find an actual product for sale or to download…
My experience with other plugins I have used or currently use with Audirvana is that they function as expected when using the mac internal speakers and when connected directly via usb to a DAC… Realtime configuration, functionally and display… And parameters can be saved and later loaded when connected via upnp ethernet or wifi… The plugins function in as much as they affect the signal chain… I can definitely tell when room correction and/or eq are not functioning in my system… And even though echoic memory is short, both my ears and REW can tell a difference… As for the uBACCH plugin it did not sound as good when enabled… I could definitely tell it was doing something with the soundstage and imaging… It just did not sound as good to me… My speakers are room corrected via separate FIR filters and I am guessing that the uBACCH plugin may be in someway breaking the room correction DSP…
Some things to consider from this test… I did not move the speakers for this test as I was not trying to get the best result from the plugin, just verify that it does function via upnp… The ML ESLs are more or less line source ESL curvilinear panels with a more orthodox box bass speaker so is a hybrid design… Little to no first reflection point on the sides… I believe that this speaker design creates less crosstalk than more traditional box speakers…
From what I can extrapolate from your speaker/listening environment/DSP correction scenario, your impression that your room correction DSP is fouling the uBACCH processing, is most likely…
From what I distill from the BACCH Labs overview of the nature of the BACCH processing on a given playback speakers system, the best results will be produced in a listening environment consisting of physical room treatment/early reflection mitigation…
It seems the complexity of the filter hierarchy is easily smeared by those early reflection phase relationships and frequency/dynamic relationships compared to the source… The filter impulse responses probably were done on raw speaker/signal/room relationships, because they could not model all potential room-correction DSP for any given playback scenario… An interesting test would be to see how uBACCH sounds without any time & frequency based room-correction in the playback chain.
This is probably why the personalized HRTF measurement is essential for the ultimate experience, because the system can then analyze the time/frequency relationships at the pinnae…
Have you tried this solution, yet?
I’ve compared Home Audio Fidelity solution based on measurements to u-BACCH and I prefer Home Audio Fidelity by far.
So, when this shit is fixed, and you get the listening experience as promoted by purveyors of ridiculously priced plugins, will this be the final nail in the coffin of vinyl listening, the last best greatest thing? Unless you can get a plugin for your turntable?
I’ve been under the impression all this time that the uBACCH plug-in doesn’t work at all over UPnP (i.e.) has no effect on the sound, if RealTime is enabled.
From what @Ddude003 explained that’s not the case. It’s just that you can’t configure it while outputting over UPnP.
So the only remaining problem is that if anyone does disable RealTime for this plug-in, it doesn’t work correctly, and has the problems I described of a long silent cut-off, followed by distorted sound (some of the time).
When @Antoine stated it didn’t work over UPnP, with RealTime enabled, I thought he meant, doesn’t work at all.
The other player I tested doesn’t have a switch to disable RealTime, and behaves similarly to Audirvana with RealTime disabled when it’s outputting over UPnP.
Audirvana has that problem with RealTime disabled with this plug-in whether outputting over UPnP or directly to an audio device.
The problem is worse with the other player though, because it always exhibits this problem over UPnP. So the plug-in is unusable with that player over UPnP.
When I tested briefly with Audirvana and RealTime enabled, I couldn’t tell by listening if the plug-in was having any effect on the sound.
The effect of the plug-in is very dependant on the type of speaker, whether the room is treated or not. With the right type of speaker, the effect can be dramatic and would probably be even better in a physically treated room.
It is also very dependant on the recording being played.
The folks behind the plug-in already mentioned that with Omni speakers there won’t be much of an effect. I think that’s also the case with any speaker with a relatively diffuse sound though. Whether the room is physically treated and/or digitally corrected.
With Avantgarde Horns, which are quite focused and directive, I’ve had some spectacular results.
When configuring the plug-in to set the angle of the speakers you drag a slider from a middling position ( I started with an angle of 40). With the Avantgarde’s testing the left speaker the generated pink noise was clearly emanating from the left speaker. When I moved the slider to reduce the angle, I got to the point where the “blob” of pink noise was clearly outside and further to the left of the left speaker. I repeated with the Right speaker, with the same result. The value was slightly different for the right speaker, so I split the difference.
With the Avantgardes, if I moved the slider too far, the sound moved along the left wall; but it became less focused and diffuse. So I moved it back to just outside the left speaker, where it remained focused and “clean”. Then I repeated the exercise for the right speaker.
With my Martin Logans, it was difficult to pinpoint this blob of pink noise. I could get it to correspond to each speakers location; but it was already quite diffuse and spread out. Moving the slider it became even more diffuse and harder to locate.
So yes, I think the Martin Logans are already spreading the sound out to both sides and doing some of what the plug-in can do, by themselves.
I won’t be able to re-test with the Avantgardes until the weekend. Then I can be sure the plug-in is really working well for me over UPnP with RealTime enabled.
Just plug your turntable output into an A/D converter interface of reasonable quality and route the signal to a DAW that supports plug-in architecture… You can do this today if you have a recording interface and a production DAW.
This is more of a problem with the room early reflections/speaker placement in your room… not the speakers per-se…
so, in effect digitising the vinyl?
Yep… antithetical but doable, if what comes out of the speakers is more compelling in most cases, as compared to the plain-vanilla stereo playback of the performance… All very subjective these days… a lot of vinyl-heads are selling their collections and gear and moving to digital.
I think I would probably find it disconcerting, to be sat in front of my speakers, and hear the sound NOT coming from them.