UPNP Streaming Quality with Naim Nova

I just purchased Audirvana to upnp stream my Qobuz subscription to the Nova. I’m primarily using Audirvana so that I can EQ the stream in my 25x25 ft room with floor to ceiling glass windows on 2 sides. As you can see in my debug info, the highest http-get is 16/48 but it shows a group of virtual formats with higher res.
Is Audirvana transcoding flac from Qobuz to wav(see url being used in song being played)?
What is the res of the stream being sent from Audirvana to the Naim Nova?
I just don’t understand the protocols over upnp.
Thx much for any help!

Just found it wont let me paste all debug info because it has more than 5 links(prohibited for new poster).

=================== AUDIO DEVICE ========================

Preferred device: Living Room Model UID:Naim Audio Ltd. Living Room UID:uuid:37f47346-d342-4447-9c24-e9b84735b108

Currently playing to UPnP device at 24 bits 96kHz
Selected device:
UPnP device at http://192.168.1.118:60260/37f47346-d342-4447-9c24-e9b84735b108.xml
ID 0x0 Living Room Manufacturer:Naim Audio Ltd.
Model UID:Naim Audio Ltd. Living Room UID:uuid:37f47346-d342-4447-9c24-e9b84735b108

8 available sample rates up to 384000Hz
44100
48000
88200
96000
176400
192000
352800
384000
Volume control: No
MQA capability
Auto-detect MQA devices: Yes
Not a MQA device, user set to not MQA
DSD capability: Raw DSD (MSB)
Device audio channels
Preferred stereo channels L:0 R:1
Channel bitmap: Ox3, layout:
Channel 0 mapped to 0
Channel 1 mapped to 1
UPnP/DLNA supported protocols:
http-get::text/xml:DLNA.ORG_PN=DIDL_S
http-get:
:audio/vnd.dlna.adts:DLNA.ORG_PN=HEAACv2_L2_320
http-get::audio/x-ms-wma:DLNA.ORG_PN=WMAFULL
http-get:
:audio/x-ms-wma:DLNA.ORG_PN=WMABASE
http-get::audio/3gpp:DLNA.ORG_PN=HEAACv2_L2_320
http-get:
:audio/mp4:DLNA.ORG_PN=HEAACv2_L2_320
http-get::audio/l16;rate=48000;channels=1:DLNA.ORG_PN=LPCM
http-get:
:audio/l16;rate=48000;channels=2:DLNA.ORG_PN=LPCM
http-get::audio/l16;rate=44100;channels=1:DLNA.ORG_PN=LPCM
http-get:
:audio/l16;rate=44100;channels=2:DLNA.ORG_PN=LPCM
http-get::audio/mpeg:DLNA.ORG_PN=MP3
rtsp-rtp-udp:
:text/xml:DLNA.ORG_PN=DIDL_S
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/vnd.dlna.adts:DLNA.ORG_PN=HEAACv2_L2_320
rtsp-rtp-udp:
:audio/x-ms-wma:DLNA.ORG_PN=WMAFULL
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/x-ms-wma:DLNA.ORG_PN=WMABASE
rtsp-rtp-udp:
:audio/3gpp:DLNA.ORG_PN=HEAACv2_L2_320
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/mp4:DLNA.ORG_PN=HEAACv2_L2_320
rtsp-rtp-udp:
:audio/l16;rate=48000;channels=1:DLNA.ORG_PN=LPCM
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/l16;rate=48000;channels=2:DLNA.ORG_PN=LPCM
rtsp-rtp-udp:
:audio/l16;rate=44100;channels=1:DLNA.ORG_PN=LPCM
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/l16;rate=44100;channels=2:DLNA.ORG_PN=LPCM
rtsp-rtp-udp:
:audio/mpeg:DLNA.ORG_PN=MP3
http-get::audio/l16;rate=48000;channels=1:
http-get::text/xml:
http-get::audio/l16;rate=48000;channels=2:
http-get::audio/ogg:
http-get::audio/x_pm_flac:
http-get::audio/vnd.dlna.adts:
http-get::audio/m4a:
http-get::audio/wav:
http-get::application/ogg:
http-get::audio/mpeg:
http-get::audio/mp4:
http-get::audio/aac:
http-get::audio/aiff:
http-get::audio/x-wav:
http-get::audio/x-m4a:
http-get::audio/vorbis:
http-get::audio/wave:
http-get::audio/x-aiff:
http-get::audio/x-dsf:
http-get::audio/3gpp:
http-get::audio/l16;rate=44100;channels=1:
http-get::audio/l16;rate=44100;channels=2:
http-get::audio/x-dff:
http-get::audio/x-ms-wma:
http-get::audio/flac:
http-get::audio/x-flac:
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/l16;rate=48000;channels=1:
rtsp-rtp-udp::text/xml:
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/l16;rate=48000;channels=2:
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/ogg:
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/x_pm_flac:
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/vnd.dlna.adts:
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/m4a:
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/wav:
rtsp-rtp-udp::application/ogg:
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/mpeg:
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/mp4:
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/aac:
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/aiff:
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/x-wav:
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/x-m4a:
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/vorbis:
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/wave:
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/x-aiff:
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/x-dsf:
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/3gpp:
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/l16;rate=44100;channels=1:
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/l16;rate=44100;channels=2:
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/x-dff:
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/x-ms-wma:
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/flac:
rtsp-rtp-udp::audio/x-flac:
DLNA 1.5: Yes
Gapless playback: Yes
Missing events workaround: Yes
Can play native DSD: Yes
Number of channels: 2
Use as stereo device only: Yes

I did some further testing. Turned off system optimization and turned off Audio units. Playing over upnp I sometimes get 16/44 on the bottom left and 24/44 on the bottom right of the screen. Also now with everything off, I see in Debug info on Currently Playing line 32/192 when on the scree of the mac in the Audirvana app, 24/192.

What resolution does upnp/dlna really use when GetProtocolInfo returns 16/48 as a max on the http-get lines of Debug Info but Virtual Formats of up to 32/384(which is what Naim says the Nova is capable of)?
Also when playing what are flac high res files streamed from Qobuz, why does the url Currently playing show and address with a .wav ending?
Sorry for being so ignorant on this stuff but I’m really confused.

It should play in the native resolution over UPnP or whatever you upsample to.

@bitracer the files streaming off Qobuz say for example. 16/44(bottom left corner of audirvana screen). While playing, they will sometimes show 32/44 in bottom right corner of screen. When I open Debug Info while playing Qobuz stream, if the source says 16/44, the Currently Playing section of Debug always says 32/44 being delivered on upnp to my Naim Nova. No matter whether the Qobuz stream says 16 or 24, while playing, the Debug Info Currently playing says 32.

Also why would a player like the Naim, that says it takes flac and up to 32/384 be returning a response to GetPrtocolInfo in the Debug Info with the highest http-get being 16/48?

The virtual format section shows formats up to 32/384, but googling virtual formats and upnp turned up nothing useful. What are they?

Why does Audirvana deliver the Qobuz fkac stream as .wav?

Sorry for all the questions. Appreciate any help!

I don’t know exactly how it works, but I’m pretty sure it doesn’t resample the stream.

What exactly is your concern?

@bitracer my concerns are learning about what Audirvana is actually doing and secondly determining the best settings to use for upnp to the Naim Nova.

For example, here are specs from Naim
WAV - up to 32bits/384kHz
FLAC and AIFF - up to 24bit/384kHz

Now we have 24/192 coming from Qobuz stream, but it is converted to a .wav file I think based on the Debug Info listing.
Should I have maximum pcm 24/384 or 32/384?

No, unless you upsample you would get what Qobuz is giving you (24/192).

@bitracer that doesn’t seem to be the case. When I play a 16/44 flac stream from Qobuz, this is what I get from Debug Info.

Currently playing to UPnP device at 24 bits 44.1kHz
Selected device:
UPnP device at http://192.168.1.118:55021/37f47346-d342-4447-9c24-e9b84735b108.xml
ID 0x0 Living RoomManufacturer:Naim Audio Ltd.

If I play for example a 24/96 stream Debug will say 24/96 if I set the bit depth at 24 for my Nova in Audirvana. If I play 24/96 stream but set my Nova at 32 bit depth in Audirvana, Debug Info will say playing upnp at 32/96.

Why doesn’t Audirvana say it’s playing upnp at 24/96 if that is what is streaming from Qobuz.

There’s been a lot of discussion in the forums about this. @Damien3 claims that the bit depth shown is the maximum bit depth the DAC reports to support. There should be no upsampling or padding involved.

Are you experiencing any sound degradation or you’re just curious on a technical level?

I haven’t done blind A/B comparisons running Qobuz native in the Naim app so I can’t say I’m experiencing “problems”. I suppose I should. I only bought Audirvana because I needed to EQ the stream since I have a crazy room.
The Debug Info is taken from whatever you input into the
Maximum PCM Bitdepth pulldown in Audio Settings. It does not pay attention to what the upnp device reports.
I just set it to 32 in the pull down. Now 16/44 flac streaming from Qobuz reports in Debug Info, Currently Playing to upnp device at 32/44.
So who knows what it really is doing. I sure would like to know.

@bitracer so I just did blind A/B test using Coltrane’58 Lush Life track( 24/192 flac). I compared Qobuz stream native in Naim app against 24 Bitdepth, 192 Maximum PCM rate in Audirvana. Audirvana sounds thinner, perhaps shriller on sax and piano seems muddier. All subjective but I identified the streams correctly 4 of 5 times.
On the Naim app it shows native Qobuz as 24/192 flac.
When it is playing through Audirvana the Naim app shows WAV 24/192. So the Qobuz flac stream is definitely repackaged as a WAV. Not sure if that has anything to do with the sound difference.
Does the repackaging as WAV use any bits up?

It shouldn’t, WAV is just raw uncompressed PCM.

Thx @bitracer. I did some reading and you are certainly correct. I wonder why doing the decompression of flac in Audirvana which then sends it as wav file vs decompression of flac by my Nova From Qobuz directly makes it sound different.
I have now set Audirvana to 32/384 since that is max for wav files according to Naim documentation(flac is 24/384 in Naim doc).

Do you happen to know what “Virtual Format” refers to in Debug Info?

I guess decompression is due to just how UPnP expects it. It works with raw PCM.

So do you know what Virtual Formats listed in Debug Info are?

I assume that those are just supported resolutions.

I’m pretty sure that there is no re-samplings going on, otherwise hell would break loose.

My experience with Audirvana and the Naim Uniti Nova is the same. Although we are talking about minor differences, streaming Qobuz HiRes FLAC directly to the Nova (controlled through the Naim app) sounds better than when decompressed to PCM by Audirvana. Although in theory this should not happen, this might be caused by different decoding algorithms or electric noise in general purpose computers. Therefore, my feature request for the option to switch off conversion in the Audirvana app.

Would be interesting to hear, if others have the same experience with other Hi-End streamers.