16 bit/44.1 kHz MQA Files Not Decoding Correctly

[haseth]

I am using Audrvana Studio on Windows 10 with a Zorloo Ztella MQA DAC and I use TIDAL as my music service. When I play MQA songs which were originally 24bit/44.1 kHz and above up to 192 kHz the following happens: (I will use Hotel California (2013 Remaster) as an example)

original file: 24bit/192kHz
file received: 24bit/48kHz
first unfold:24bit/96kHz
second and third unfold:24bit/192kHz

(DAC LED turns magneta confirming MQA and Audirvana shows green circle in output)

Now, there are a whole other group of songs on TIDAL which are marked as MQA, but they are 16bit/44.1kHz (why we even need MQA versions of these files is a whole mystery of its own). Now these files in Audirvana go through this wierd process (I will use Holiday/Bouleevard of Broken Dreams as an example):

original file: 16bit/44.1kHz
file received: 16bit/44.1kHz
first unfold: 16bit/88.2kHz
second and third unfold:16bit/88.2kHz

(DAC LED turns red confirming signal is above 48kHz but not MQA and Audirvana doesn’t show green circle for output even though original file is flagged as FLAC MQA)

Now I am sure the issue is not my DAC itself because on Roon and USB Audio Player Pro for Android the same 16bit/44.1kHz MQA songs are played and the magneta light turns on without issue.

Anyone know why this happens? Has anyone experienced it as well? Could it be due to an incompability between the Zorloo Ztella DAC and Audirvina Studio? Then why is it other software don’t have this problem?

Also, I can clearly hear the difference. A 16 bit / 88.3 kHz song sounds terrible. Is there any way to contact support or is this forum only option? I have attached screenshots for the two example songs.

[bitracer]

You can write to support@audirvana.com.

While you wait, can you paste the debug info here?

[Jacob]

Tidal tracks conversion

That’s correct, and it’s used only if your DAC is not MQA capable or you have a MQA Renderer, not decoder. On those cases it just does the first “unfold”. If you have a MQA Decoder, it does nothing and just passes the bit-perfect stream to the DAC for the full “unfolding”. It’s correct that it kicks in, but it shouldn’t alter the resolution of the content that is sourced from 44.1. It would just apply the corrections for the recording artefacts and leave the resolution intact. At least that’s …

The same here. But no response from @Antoine yet

If I understand correctly, the DAC is an MQA decoder. Then you don’t need the Audirvana decoder at all.

In the screenshots, the DAC is shown as an MQA renderer.

[haseth]

Current version: 1.6.1 (10601)

SIGNAL PROCESSING:

Polarity Inversion:
	Globally: OFF
	Per track: ON
Effects plugins NOT ACTIVE

UPSAMPLING:
SoX not in use
SoX filter parameters
Bandwidth at 0dB = 99.5%
Filter max length = 30000
Anti-aliasing = 100
Phase = 66%

AUDIO VOLUME:
Max allowed volume: 100
Replay Gain: None
SW volume control: OFF

LIBRARY SETTINGS:
Sync list: 0 folders
Library database path: C:\Users****\AppData\Local\Audirvana\Audirvana\AudirvanaDatabase.sqlite

Remote Control server:
Listening on 192.168.0.103 on port 63150

ACTIVE STREAMING SERVICES
TIDAL: Connected as HIFI

=================== AUDIO DEVICE ========================

Max. memory for audio buffers: 1836MB

Local Audio Engine: WASAPI

Preferred device:
Speakers (Zorloo Ztella USB Audio)
Model UID:MMDEVAPI\AudioEndpoints
UID:\?\SWD#MMDEVAPI#{0.0.0.00000000}.{0e133331-6894-42fc-9bf4-65810df430fa}#{e6327cad-dcec-4949-ae8a-991e976a79d2}

Currently playing in Integer Mode:
Device: 2ch 16bits Integer, 4 bytes per frame 88.2kHz

Active Sample Rate: 88.2kHz

Bridge settings:
Sample rate limitation: none
Sample rate switching latency: none
Limit bitdepth to 24bit: OFF
Mute during sample rate change: OFF

Selected device:
Local audio device
Speakers (Zorloo Ztella USB Audio)
Manufacturer: Microsoft
Model Name: Speakers (Zorloo Ztella USB Audio)
Model UID: MMDEVAPI\AudioEndpoints
UID: \?\SWD#MMDEVAPI#{0.0.0.00000000}.{0e133331-6894-42fc-9bf4-65810df430fa}#{e6327cad-dcec-4949-ae8a-991e976a79d2}

8 available sample rates up to 384000Hz
44100
48000
88200
96000
176400
192000
352800
384000
Volume Control
Physical: Yes
Virtual: No
MQA capability
Auto-detect MQA devices: Yes
MQA Renderer device
DSD capability: DSD via PCM 1.1
Device audio channels
Preferred stereo channels L:0 R:1
Channel bitmap: Ox3, layout:
Channel 0 mapped to 0
Channel 1 mapped to 1

Audio channels in use
Number of channels: 2
Use as stereo device only: No
Simple stereo device: No

1 output streams:
Number of active channels: 2, in 1 stream(s)
Channel #0 :Stream 0 channel 0
Channel #1 :Stream 0 channel 1
2 ch Integer PCM 16bit little endian 44.1kHz
2 ch Integer PCM 24bit little endian 44.1kHz
2 ch Integer PCM 32bit little endian 44.1kHz
2 ch Integer PCM 16bit little endian 48kHz
2 ch Integer PCM 24bit little endian 48kHz
2 ch Integer PCM 32bit little endian 48kHz
2 ch Integer PCM 16bit little endian 88.2kHz
2 ch Integer PCM 24bit little endian 88.2kHz
2 ch Integer PCM 32bit little endian 88.2kHz
2 ch Integer PCM 16bit little endian 96kHz
2 ch Integer PCM 24bit little endian 96kHz
2 ch Integer PCM 32bit little endian 96kHz
2 ch Integer PCM 16bit little endian 176.4kHz
2 ch Integer PCM 24bit little endian 176.4kHz
2 ch Integer PCM 32bit little endian 176.4kHz
2 ch Integer PCM 16bit little endian 192kHz
2 ch Integer PCM 24bit little endian 192kHz
2 ch Integer PCM 32bit little endian 192kHz
2 ch Integer PCM 16bit little endian 352.8kHz
2 ch Integer PCM 24bit little endian 352.8kHz
2 ch Integer PCM 32bit little endian 352.8kHz
2 ch Integer PCM 16bit little endian 384kHz
2 ch Integer PCM 24bit little endian 384kHz
2 ch Integer PCM 32bit little endian 384kHz

Local devices found : 3
Device #0: Speakers (Zorloo Ztella USB Audio) Manufacturer: Microsoft Model UID: MMDEVAPI\AudioEndpoints UID: \?\SWD#MMDEVAPI#{0.0.0.00000000}.{0e133331-6894-42fc-9bf4-65810df430fa}#{e6327cad-dcec-4949-ae8a-991e976a79d2} Model Name: Speakers (Zorloo Ztella USB Audio)
Device #1: SAMSUNG (Intel(R) Display Audio) Manufacturer: Microsoft Model UID: MMDEVAPI\AudioEndpoints UID: \?\SWD#MMDEVAPI#{0.0.0.00000000}.{2416cbc2-27ba-446e-b9b7-0847f301992f}#{e6327cad-dcec-4949-ae8a-991e976a79d2} Model Name: SAMSUNG (Intel(R) Display Audio)
Device #2: Speakers (Realtek High Definition Audio(SST)) Manufacturer: Microsoft Model UID: MMDEVAPI\AudioEndpoints UID: \?\SWD#MMDEVAPI#{0.0.0.00000000}.{ab6bdb85-ab94-4eee-8fc2-2bd84ee982bc}#{e6327cad-dcec-4949-ae8a-991e976a79d2} Model Name: Speakers (Realtek High Definition Audio(SST))

UPnP devices found : 0

[haseth]

If that’s the case then the same thing should happen for Roon and it doesn’t. As a reference I have attached the Roon conversion path (the labelling is a bit different in the program but I’ve summarized it here similar to the previous post) it shows for both songs. It goes:

Hotel California
original file: 24bit/192kHz
file received: 24bit/48kHz
first unfold:24bit/96kHz
second and third unfold:24bit/192kHz (it doesn’t say final bit but I assume it’s still 24)

Holiday / Boulevard of Broken Dreams
original file: 16bit/44.1kHz
file received: 16bit/44.1kHz
first unfold:24bit/88.2kHz
second and third unfold:16bit/44.1kHz (not sure of final bit depth but it shoud be 16)

DAC LED is magneta in both cases.

[Jacob]

OK. It is a problem that the Audirvana Core decoder does not correctly decode the MQA CD files. That is not good and we are waiting for a response from Audirvana.

If I read correctly, the DAC is a decoder. You can let the software do the first step. but it’s not necessary. For now you can listen to some music without the distortion.

[Jacob]

my mistake. Probably looked at the wrong website. It’s a renderer

[haseth]

I believe there is a misunderstanding regarding terminology here, at least up to what I have understood according MQA’s explanations on how the whole process works.

Step one is a “MQA Core Decoder” which is what TIDAL, Audirvana, Roon, USB Audio Pro Player - Android, … make happen.

Step two is a “MQA Renderer” which is what MQA certified USB DACs like Zorloo Ztella, AudioQuest Dragonfly, …which are mainly portable make happen.

Step one and two can be combined in a “MQA Full Decoder” which has the whole setup and you do not need Audirvina, just connect TIDAL to it and you are all good to go.

So my Zorloo Ztella USB DAC is a MQA Renderer.

[haseth]

All good. I got a bit confused as well for a second when you said it is a decoder.

[lucretius]

@haseth

Auto-detect MQA devices: Yes
MQA Renderer device
DSD capability: DSD via PCM 1.1

Looking at the log and screen shots, the DAC appears to be setup corrrectly in Audirvana.

[lucretius]

@haseth

Now, there are a whole other group of songs on TIDAL which are marked as MQA, but they are 16bit/44.1kHz (why we even need MQA versions of these files is a whole mystery of its own). Now these files in Audirvana go through this wierd process (I will use Holiday/Bouleevard of Broken Dreams as an example):

original file: 16bit/44.1kHz
file received: 16bit/44.1kHz
first unfold: 16bit/88.2kHz
second and third unfold:16bit/88.2kHz

Obviously, the track information received from Tidal indicates that it is an MQA file, that is why the decoder is “unfolding” the from 16/44.1 to 16/88.2. Studio should be sending the rendering information (i.e. the ORIGINALSAMPLERATE and which MQA filter to select) to the DAC but this does not seem to be happening.

@haseth

Also, I can clearly hear the difference. A 16 bit / 88.2 kHz song sounds terrible.

There’s little Studio can do to improve the sound here. Even if the DAC receives the proper rendering information from Studio, for 16 bit MQA, you are always going to get just 16/88.2 or 16/96 despite what may be displayed (there are no ultrasonsic frequencies contained in the 16 bit file/stream). And although it looks like Studio is decoding (or rather upsampling in this case) this to 16/88.2, nonetheless the original file contains no ultrasonic frequencies. This is an excellent example of fake hi-res.

[bitracer]

Something obviously goes wrong here as the DAC can’t recognise it as MQA stream.

[lucretius]

I said that. However, even if the DAC received the rendering info, in this case (i.e. 16 bit MQA) the sound would remained unchanged.

[lucretius]

I should also note that while the benefits of 24-bit MQA are debatable, OTH, 16-bit MQA is clearly a fraud.

[bitracer]

Well, they say that the MQA encoding scheme is resolution agnostic. In theory they can apply artefact correction on both ends, regardless of the source resolution.

[lucretius]

Define “artefact correction”.

[Jacob]

Something strange happens with Roon too. There the file is decoded to 24/88.2 and then sent to the DAC as 44.1.

[lucretius]

@Jacob

Something strange happens with Roon too. There the file is decoded to 24/88.2 and then sent to the DAC as 44.1.

I believe the ORIGINALSAMPLERATE (per rendering info) is being displayed here, not what is actually received by the DAC. See “Authentication” in the Roon signal path. The same would be true if the ORIGINALSAMPLERATE was 192, then 192 would be displayed.

[Jacob]

Then the upsampling to 88.2 remains unexplained . This has nothing to do with decoding/unfolding. Hopefully @Antoine can say something about this.

[lucretius]

Actually, that is something MQA Ltd. needs to explain. All software MQA core decoders work this way, i.e. they all upsample 44.1 to 88.2 and 48 to 96.